Looking forward to '04!

[ImEric12]

Can't wait for CAEN '04! Only a few more weeks to go.. the countdown is on!

(Also, first post, buahaha..)

[kram 2.0]

w00t - can't wait for 04 - that's for sure. I guess that makes me second post http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif . Signed up for Digital Film for session three. Hope much of what happened last year will happen again this year - it was just definately one of the best camps I've ever been to.

kram

[ImEric12]

Yeah, I signed up for Session 2, inter C++ and network.

Also, I have a question.. me and two other people each put eachothers names (so we each had two names in the field).. will we end up in the 3 room or will you split us randomly?

[random]

I won't be coming this year http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

But I do want to know when the CS server is up, if folks are going to be playing CS this year ... be nice to have a CS server w/o cheating.

[kram 2.0]

Also, is there going to be a form or something sent home after we register? Last year, I sent in a recomendation, general info , and money and then a packet came with everything else (transportation, room mate, etc.). I'd like to know somehow, that my app was received :-) .

Only days, ladies and gentlement, just days until Ses1...

Thanks,
kram

[ImEric12]

AHFH! I'm so excited for this year again! I can't wait! (I'm gonna totally own at Para Para this year, now that my DDR reading skills own)

Ooh, speaking of that, I think I'm gonna attempt to bring my PS2.. or order a PS2>USB adapter, and own with StepMania...

[Cjrules22]

Eric definately go with StepMania http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Nebula and my other room mate absolutely pwn with it.
It roKs!

ps: make sure ya watch out for some incompatible converters

[linked]

Eh eh eh, I'll be back sessions 1 and 2 this year.... As CIT, w00t http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Yeah, I just got (like, this morning) 2 DDR hard pads... not metal, just hard plastic. They're kinda unresponsive, but you get used to them (and step harder). I'm gonna try to rip the PS2 away from my big-sis (She's violent-crazy about it), and transfer it to Dorm-dome for those 4 weeks.
Otherwise, I'll probably wind up snagging one of those usb converters (and/or making my own... ill bring solder, heh)...

Are we playing CS AGAIN this year? I'm all for ut2k4, that's been inhaling my free time lately.

[ImEric12]

awesomeawesomeawesome!

I'd bring mine, but my sister gets obsessive over having ddr only when I want to bring it somewhere, otherwise, she NEVER EVER plays it.

[-D12-_LMN8R]

ut2k4 can run on my old P2 400MHz....albiet slowly.....there's no reason why that game shouldn't be game of choice at camp ;-)

[ImEric12]

I've been meaning to try that game for a while.

[Black Mage]

</span>Quote[/b] (random @ May 22 2004,21:14)]I won't be coming this year http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

But I do want to know when the CS server is up, if folks are going to be playing CS this year ... be nice to have a CS server w/o cheating.<span =''>
I seriously hope people move on to something more fun like TFC or Deathmatch classic this year.

[random]

</span>Quote[/b] ]
I seriously hope people move on to something more fun like TFC or Deathmatch classic this year<span =''>

Whatever, as long as it's a free halflife mod. Or FarCry. FarCry is sweet. But I am not blowing another $50 on games for at least a few months.

[-D12-_LMN8R]

In order for a game to be popular at camp, everyone needs to be able to play it down in the labs. Farcry is an amazing game, but only the multiplayer isn't anything special and it probably wouldn't run well at all on computers not meant for gaming (Read: lab computers).

[Nebula]

</span>Quote[/b] (Cjrules22 @ June 02 2004,23:02)]Eric definately go with StepMania http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Nebula and my other room mate absolutely pwn with it.<span =''>

Yes, StepMania is fantastic (I reccomend the SMMAX2 theme and the packs from DDR:UK), and 3.9 is getting better and better with each alpha (it shouldn't even be called an alpha, in my opinion. It's worked flawlessly for me, except for one profile bug around alpha 14 -- it's up to alpha 20 now). However, I'm pretty BAD (emphasis on bad, incase you didn't notice) with DDR. I think it's the coordination aspect...maybe stamina too. I try, but the best I can do is beginner and light steps. Yeah, I'm a n00b, give me a frigging break. I have two DDR pads (soft, 8 squares, PS(2)) and a PS(2) - &gt; USB convertor that I'll be bringing to camp. Damn...maybe I should start practicing...hmm.

Can't wait for Session 2!!

[ConfusedSoul]

Wow, DDR just got a whole lot more popular or something. For about 2 months or so i've been contemplating over buying the stuff for it (pads, game, Ps2). Even though I've barely ever played it the times I did it was extremely fun. Now instead of dishing out 200-400 dollars I can just sneak into peoples rooms and use theirs!



Also (Points towards ImEric12's question on the 1st page) if three people all put down the other peoples names for room mates would they be paired up in one of those 3 person rooms?

[Nebula]

</span>Quote[/b] (ConfusedSoul @ June 15 2004,00:09)]Wow, DDR just got a whole lot more popular or something. For about 2 months or so i've been contemplating over buying the stuff for it (pads, game, Ps2). Even though I've barely ever played it the times I did it was extremely fun. Now instead of dishing out 200-400 dollars I can just sneak into peoples rooms and use theirs!<span =''>
it's funny you should mention that...I popped up $80 for getting the DDR pads and USB convertor after only playing DDR once. Not really sure why...it looked fun. And it is...it's just a lot of work ^^;;;; I'm too lazy...maybe I should practice more.

[Black Mage]

</span>Quote[/b] (random @ June 14 2004,06:24)]</span>Quote[/b] ]
I seriously hope people move on to something more fun like TFC or Deathmatch classic this year<span =''>

Whatever, as long as it's a free halflife mod. Â*Or FarCry. Â*FarCry is sweet. Â*But I am not blowing another $50 on games for at least a few months.<span =''>
Whats so great about Half-Life? I mean TFC and CS are fun but they pale in comparison to Quake and/or Starcraft.

[Nebula]

</span>Quote[/b] (Black Mage @ June 16 2004,20:51)]Whats so great about Half-Life? I mean TFC and CS are fun but they pale in comparison to Quake and/or Starcraft.<span =''>
Sure they're fun, but so is Quake, and StarCraft. They're all good in their own ways. Play whatever you want, and let other's play what they want.

I'd love to try Quake, or something else. Last year, CS completely sucked up my time. Don't get me wrong, I love CS. But it'd be great to play something else too.

I guess I'm just not sick of CS yet http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Black Mage]

That was my main problem, CS got old the first year I went CAEN so I'm trying to convince the masses (or just the two other guys that post here) to play something else.

[Nebula]

hey, I'm all for new games...the only problem is that (well, last year anyways), most played CS (from what I saw). If UT2004 or anything else gains momentum, sure I'll try it. The only thing is, my parents really dislike FPSs. The only one I own (and will own for the immediate future anyways) is HL/CS. Chris (CJRules22) had to give it to me as a christmas present, and my parents didn't hate FPSs at the time...probably because we didn't own any, I had only played CS at camp. So...yeah. I bring something new in, and they'll probably get more cheezed off than they already are.

But hey, who knows, I'll give it a shot. Another problem is though that if I get hooked on UT2004, then I have to go...buy...it. Being the cheap person I am (please don't look at my DDR comment above http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )...well, yeah. But I've been meaning to buy UT2004 for a while.

Bah, I'm rambling. And it's not even 10pm. Grr.

[-D12-_LMN8R]

UT2k4 has a CD or DVD version out, and both have been under $40, usually closer to $30, since the day it came out. Price is not an issue ;-)

[Nebula]

yeah, yeah, price isn't an issue, it's those pesky parents.

or at least mine.

[Black Mage]

How old are you, like 13?

[Nebula]

yeah, I know, overprotective parents. I'm 16, thanks. Sometimes I think my parents forget that.

[Black Mage]

Damn dude, you can drive but you can't kill polygons, thats sad.

[ImEric12]

I say TFC, Tribes 2, ANYTHING but CS. For Gods sake, lets just play Doom.

[Nebula]

</span>Quote[/b] (Black Mage @ June 18 2004,19:18)]Damn dude, you can drive but you can't kill polygons, thats sad.<span =''>
haha. I can kill polygons. I just got off of playing on the CAP Deathmatch server for an hour. My parents just don't want me to get anymore. They've said they'll allow CS, but not any other FPSs.

I doubt they'll notice though. It does suck having lawyers for parents sometimes...

[Nebula]

</span>Quote[/b] (ImEric12 @ June 18 2004,19:41)]I say TFC, Tribes 2, ANYTHING but CS. For Gods sake, lets just play Doom.<span =''>
mmm, TFC. We played TFC for a day last year in my java class, I think. It's kinda fun http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Strange though, since I've gotten used to counter strike. I like how you pick a role/class...too bad it's not as popular as CS.

We also played some funky thing called Soldat (http://www.soldat.pl/main.php). It was really strange though...side scroller, hrm.

COUNTER STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[wzoo1]

mmm... Soldat... I actually remember that game, was fun since it was my first time playing.
Now back to fragging with UT2k4 which I hope will be played this year, I've had ENOUGH with CS (ok not enough but Steam is pissing me off...). I seriously hope we play something different this year. Â*http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ConfusedSoul]

Well I guess the appeal to Counter-Strike is that it's very easy to learn for the noobs like me that never even heard of it until last year (At first it sounded like a C&amp;C Expansion...). And the whole hard to master thing. And if you get on a roll and keep killing everyone even though you really suck at it, it's pretty fun.

I don't see anything wrong with CS. But that could be since I haven't played that much of it or none if you don't count camp.

Last year a lot of people played starcraft too...and some played warcraft. If you really wanted to &quot;stop&quot; people from playing CS or any other game just get a large stick and threaten them with it. Or Remotly detonate their computers.

Or the less illegal way by getting a small following and soon everyone will join you and you'll have a mindless mob of (insert random game) playing zombies.


Don't mind me, it's the Glow in the Dark Kool-Aid talking...

[kram 2.0]

I don't either. I have a n00b last year (CCN all the way! - CC n00bs) and oh boy did we rock. We were second in the CS tournament and I survived simply by pistol sniping - oh boy, do I like out of the blue things like that ;)

kram

[Nebula]

</span>Quote[/b] (kram @ June 21 2004,20:50)]We were second in the CS tournament and I survived simply by pistol sniping<span =''>
...that was YOU?!?!?!?!?!!!!!! http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

regaining seriousness...yeah, let's hope there's a new game going around. I've had a lot of friends telling me I should try out FarCry/UT2004. I plan on checking them out at camp http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ConfusedSoul]

I think my group won the CS tournament. It could be because both my teamates were verrryyy good at it. Or that I was on fire and kept killing everything with whatever weapon I could get my hands on. I was like, &quot;headshot, headsshot, pow pow pow, Bazrannnngg!&quot;.

But the Counselors and CIT's beat the shnoly out of us. It was funny though, all the bad players like me ran out while they were snipering us all to death. It was hilarious. Except it was pretty sad...oh well.

That's all I have to say for now...

[-D12-_LMN8R]

So far in session 1 CS is still the game of choice, we have steam installed with the latest version of CS on all the computers, no problems I can think of. In the next week or so I'll try distributing the UT2k4 demo or something - small file, lab machines should be able to run it.

[ImEric12]

is TFC included in the steam? NS is also fun. just ANYTHING but CS.

[Nebula]

yeah, TFC, DMC, Ricochet, Opposing Force, all the VALVe mods. NS is Steam-compatible, but you have to download an installer file from their website, and then it makes an entry under a 3rd-party-games group in the Steam games menu. It then piggybacks off the half-life game (it says it's loading Half Life when you start it up, but after it finishes loading, it's really NS). NS is pretty neat looking, I've only tried it a bit though, I got sick of little aliens eating off my legs (or killing me...probably the latter) before I even saw them. Maybe I'll give it another shot.

[kram 2.0]

</span>Quote[/b] (Nebula @ June 21 2004,22:18)]</span>Quote[/b] (kram @ June 21 2004,20:50)]We were second in the CS tournament and I survived simply by pistol sniping<span =''>
...that was YOU?!?!?!?!?!!!!!! http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

regaining seriousness...yeah, let's hope there's a new game going around. Â*I've had a lot of friends telling me I should try out FarCry/UT2004. Â*I plan on checking them out at camp http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif<span =''>
Yep - me along with Adam go second, of course, half thanks to the wonderful draw we were given and half thanks to luck. Of course, we didn't stand a chance against Firegod and Richie...I even jumped off the building on that one ;)

kram

[Pr1M4l_5.0.5]

I love counterstrike but it wil be my first time going to this camp and i am the headshot king. http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif My friends hate me for it. Any Diablo or Rts Fans out there http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ImEric12]

hey, everyone make sure to write their forum names on their door nametags (in the dorms), makes it much easier to find each other.

[Nebula]

</span>Quote[/b] (ImEric12 @ July 01 2004,21:15)]hey, everyone make sure to write their forum names on their door nametags (in the dorms), makes it much easier to find each other.<span =''>
haha, of course.

maybe we could blast music really loud too....nah, we'll do that anyways.

[ImEric12]

21.5 HOURS AND COUNTING! http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Nebula]

WOOO!!!!!!!!

hey, when does Check-In start, and where? Rightmost wing, 1st floor at 1:00pm, like last year (I think...)? Am I the only person that didn't get any information on this? I better check the site...

And yes, it is rather late to be realizing this. At least, for me anyways.

Wow. I totally forgot about this forum! X-x Kind of scary what other camps and packing do to you. (Plus a huge amount of other stuff.)

I'm sure I've missed a lot on this topic; I read up to page three, and then skipped to five. Oh well, forgive me, please. &gt;.&gt;;

I have played UT2004, and it's a really awesome game. I love the play modes they have this year, and to use vehicles? Pure awesome. I'll probably learn how to play Starcraft this year, because I haven't before, and they say it's a really awesome game. So.. yeah.

I don't know where check-in is either, although it's probably in a FAQ or something.. somewhere.

Also, we /do/ have to put our Usernames (?) under our names. Then I'll be able to match a face to a name.. kinda.

What else is there that I forgot.. &gt;.&lt; I know there is something...

Oh yeah, are they handing out Ethernet cable like they did last year? =[ I hope they are.

[Nebula]

eh, I was too lazy/sleepy to post this last night, but I found it out last night, shortly after I posted (go figure). All the info is in an email I got (surprisingly) on April 1st (and they sent it again, this time with line breaks http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) on April 15th. I'll paste it in here for those who aren't as organized as me (HA!!!).

</span>Quote[/b] ]Dear *Your Name*, Congratulations!

You have been accepted to Camp CAEN 2004. Camp CAEN is an excellent opportunity for you to become acquainted with the computer resources at the University of Michigan College of Engineering. You are registered to attend the following session(s) and class(es):

*Your Class(es)*

You should report to Bursley Residence Hall on the first Sunday of your session between 2:00 p.m. and 5:00 p.m. All instruction is on North Campus within walking distance of the residence hall. The classrooms and labs are located in the Pierpont Commons, the Duderstadt Center (formerly known as the Media Union), and several Engineering buildings. You may bring a desktop or laptop computer to camp if you wish. Please do not leave your computer unattended. Camp CAEN will not be held responsible for lost or stolen computers. Network connections are available in the dorm and the Duderstadt Center; however, your computer will need to have an Ethernet adapter to use them.

All camp sessions end on the last Friday of the session at 12:00 noon. Check out time is between 9 a.m. and 11 a.m. on the last Friday of camp. Camp staff will be available to inspect rooms and collect keys. Immediately following check out, is the Camp Open House, which runs from 11 a.m. to 12 noon. Friends and family are invited to view student projects and meet the instructors before and after the presentation. The open house will take place at Chesebrough Auditorium, located in the Chrysler Center. Parking is available in the Visitor lot behind the Pierpont Commons

The University of Michigan's Ann Arbor campus is very lucky to be placed in close proximity to the Detroit Metropolitan Airport, a Greyhound Bus Terminal as well as an Amtrak Station. If you are arriving by plane, train, or bus arrangements must be made to get transportation to Bursley Hall on the University of Michigan North Campus. If you are flying to camp and need transportation from the airport to camp, you can contact Select Ride Airport Shuttle Service at 734-663-8898 or 866-663-8898 (toll free), or visit http://www.selectride.com for information about transportation services. We request that you submit a flight itinerary to Camp CAEN so that the staff knows when to expect you or can find out if your flight was delayed. You may send it via postal mail to the above address, or email it to campcaen@umich.edu or fax it to 734-615-3011.

In order to participate, be sure to complete and send in the following forms: If there is someone you wish to room with, please submit a Roommate Request form. You must return all required forms to us along with your remaining balance in order to participate. All forms are enclosed in this mailing. We look forward to seeing you at Camp CAEN this summer!!

Sincerely, James Todd Camp Coordinator

Total balance due is $ 5,000,000,000.00 Any outstanding balance is due by May 21, 2004<span =''>

hope that helps some people http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Because I spent 5 minutes adding line breaks http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ImEric12]

Yay! I'm here! Room 1474. (end of the Van Hoozen wing, the three person room)

[kram 2.0]

</span>Quote[/b] (ImEric12 @ July 11 2004,16:12)]Yay! I'm here! Room 1474. (end of the Van Hoozen wing, the three person room)<span =''>
Are they doing three wings now or the two wing system like they did last year? Last year, I was lucky enough to be located diagnol cross from the restrooms so I never heard/smelled it, but going there was easy, in case anyone needed to know http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

kram

[ImEric12]

Yeah, I had that room in session 3 of '02.

And it's still 2 wings, our wing is practically empty.

[ujarvis]

hi. who all is comin for session 3 this year? i am. woo hoo.

They better be playin UT2004. I have mastered that game, but CS? Arent you sick of that old game? It looked cool for about 2 days, then it sucked. No respawning. For a run and gunner master like me, not my type of game. Here i am playing CS, trying to double jump off walls, trying to dodge step, double tap, and all i got were bullets. I killed alot of people once I got used to the fact its not a Unreal Tournment Series. Ive played in many many tournments, and have been in The 2004 Return To Castle Wolfenstein Clan of The Year, and have played, and beaten the best. http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif You think you can handle this http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif I also challange all the conselers to a 4 on 1 deathmatch agnist me. My name is Dan, you think you can beat me? Ill gladly embarrses you as soon as i ahve the time : P

PS- I need some people from semister 2 that are willing to form a clan for the tournment. You have to be l33t and age is not a matter. If anybody is interested, reply, and give me your AIM or AOL s/n.

[-D12-_LMN8R]

teeheehee, finally some UT2k4 challanges http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kram 2.0]

I'm going CC2003 Session 3 - went Session 2 last year, but my roommate couldn't make it to Session2 http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif. So there it is. But excited I am - bringing my new desktop with me http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

kram

over so soon.
Now who shall i own in cs?
nooooo

[thewastedsmile]

Yaar, Paul. http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif If it's any consolation, you can favorite the CAEN servers. BTW Paul, what's the IP for the servers? It reset it for some reason. *sighs*

[Nebula]

</span>Quote[/b] (thewastedsmile @ Aug. 06 2004,16:08)]Yaar, Paul. http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif If it's any consolation, you can favorite the CAEN servers. BTW Paul, what's the IP for the servers? It reset it for some reason. *sighs*<span =''>
I had favorited the CampCAEN Servers during camp, and didn't reset them when I left (I went to session 2, w00t! http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). However, there must be a firewall or something, because I never got a reply back while at home. I've since deleted the entries from my list, but the IPs were 141.213.54.114 and 141.213.54.115, both port 27015 (default). However, keep in mind those aren't dedicated servers, they're just normal workstations that were running HLDS temporarilly. Now that CAEN is over (oh right, still sesion 4...), those will just go back to normal servers.

Last year though, while Greg Peszek and Justin Yorke and friends were around, they installed HLDS on the CampCAEN webserver (This one) so you connected to campcaen.engin.umich.edu (now you use campcaen-dev, since it's changed). They shut it down since it wasn't really being maintained, but I'd definately use it if one of the staff brought it back up. This server can definately support it, I remember it was fine running at least 10 people. When PsycoStats started generating, that was another story...but it only lasted a minute or two.

BRING IT BACK!!!!!!

[-D12-_LMN8R]

The servers were being run on simple regular lab computers......in between sessions CAEN reset all the computers (needed to download Steam again, etc.) so now that camp is actually over I'm sure they'll do the same. If you try to connect and you can't it's simply because they're not up anymore, sorry.

[thewastedsmile]

Session 4...it cometh. XD Well at least the servers are up and running again, so Paul, Mark and co can beast all the session 4 kids. http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif Runar left Friday though; they don't get to see him. *teardrop* BTW, are you working Session 4 Jordan?

BTW, if anyone recalls my RAM troubles w/D3, finally picked up a 512 PC2700 stick today, right after camp. XD Woe be me. http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[-D12-_LMN8R]

Nah, the only residential person left is Dan Jucket.

[Nebula]

why isn't session 4 residential, just out of curiosity. Are college kiddies really moving into Bursley this soon? Hrm, my school starts September 7th, but that's one/two weeks delayed because our highschool is one gigantic construction zone. But still...when does UMich start?

[kram 2.0]

My sister got into U of M LSA, which runs the same schedule as College of Engineering, but she moves in on Aug 31 - which means that the dorms should technically be open. I think it's a matter of counselors and stuff - most counselors can't do session 4 http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif.

LETS HAVE THREE WEEK SESSIONS! I'm all for it, still wondering why the poll that asked us whether we wanted it or not faded away into obscurity...


kram

Somebody should start a board called &quot;Looking forward to '05!&quot;


I'm too lazy to register.

[ImEric12]

*is too lazy to start a thread*

I started this one, someone else start the next one.

[Nebula]

Done. Now someone go post in it so that this one won't be on top. Bad planning I guess, posting in here last... http://campcaen-dev.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif