Planning on getting a new computer this summer

[Stanley]

Hey all,
so once again, I'm putting off doing two term papers and thought that I could procrastinate as well get some opinions from everyone. As the topic says, I’m planning on getting a new computer this summer and I’m not really sure what I want. Now I know that for some people, that’s an easy choice:

p4 what ever the highest number is
gig-o-memory
huge hd
geforce or radeon whatever the high thing is
soundblaster or turtle beach thing
etc

pretty much your typical high end Wintel machine. But what I’m actually having issues debating is do I want to get a laptop or a desktop Mac. That’s right, a Mac. Since I spend most of my time doing day to day tasks, designing, and programming I have decided I would prefer to OS X and live an easier life. This being said, I’m having trouble determining if I want a 12� Powerbook or a Dual g4 Tower. The things I’m considering is convienece vs. power. I’m also weighing the fact that if I get a laptop, I would sell off my two CRT’s and get one 19� flat panel and do the docking station thing. So I just want to get your opinions. Thanks a bunch.

[GPeszek]

Post this bad boy as a survey http://campcaen.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[-D12-_LMN8R]

If you go with mac, all you're getting is a whole lot less power and compatibility for a higher price. Macs are easy to use, but I didn't think that you were the type of person who needs a computer that my grandma could use with ease... If you have completely decided on a mac, then get a laptop - they look just damn cool http://campcaen.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But here I go on and on about what parts you should buy for a PC of course, since that's what I build and what I know:


Really, I'd recommend Athlon right now. Â*Intel is winning performance-wise with their now hyper-threading, and processors and reach 3.06GHz, but really, the huge price just isn't worth it. Â*You can get an Athlon XP 2800+, comparable to a 2.8GHz P4 (even faster) for a much less price.

As for ram, you'll want at least PC2100 DDR ram. Â*The front-side-bus of the 2800+ is 333MHz though, so you'll want a motherboard that supports that, and PC2700 (333MHz ram) to take full advantage of that though.

For video card, again, it's a matter of how much you want to spend. Â*The absolute best out there right now is the Radeon 9700 Pro, but it'll cost you around $330. Â*Even better is the Radeon 9700 Pro All-in-wonder, which includes a TV tuner and video capture abilities. Â*It has the same performance as the regular, but including this stuff it comes to nearly $400.

Instead, you'd probably want to stick with a GeForce 4 Ti card, and the Radeon 9500 Pro is also a great card. Â*Check out Tom's Hardware's comparisons (http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20021218/vgacharts-04.html) for detailed benchmarks comparing a huge number of cards.


Hard drive(s), my recommendation is Western Digital, special edition drives - they have an 8 meg cache, drastically increasing the speed of the drives.

Sound card - if you have average to good speakers, go with a Sound Blaster Audigy. Â*If you have awesome speakers, get an Audigy 2. Â*Or, if you get a motherboard with the NForce 2 chipset, then get one with the NVidia SoundStorm audio - it's better than any sound card you can buy today (dolby digital encoding on-board).

Monitor -ViewSonic monitors are very very good, while still being not too expensive. Â*You can get a Professional Series P95f+ - 19" flat-screen CRT - for around $230 or so.

Where to buy your parts from - www.newegg.com all the way. Â*Their prices are ALMOST the lowest you can find, but their amazing customer support makes up any price differences they may have. Â*I've had to exchange many items, and they have never given me a problem.
That's about all the advice I have for now. Â*We can talk later if ya want.

[Stanley]

Actually, about OS X. I want OS X, not for it's ease of use. But more for the power that lies underneath it coupled with ability to run commercial design software. I guess I also mentioned that i don't play any games while i'm here except for the occasional game of Warc 3 and GTA 3 (neither of which i even have installed right now). Anyway, back to my arc term paper.

[jyorke]

Most of my life, I was a Mac hater. Â*I've used Macs since at least SE30s running system 7. Â*I always thought that the user interface was dumbed-down and stupid and that the machines were slow.

That said, Mac OS X is a solid operating system. Â*I enjoy using it very much. Â*To anyone who wants a new computer, I will ask them two questions: 1) are you a gamer? 2) if not, do you have enough money to buy a mac?

Honestly, I love UNIX OSes, and Mac OS X satisfies my needs for being easy to use. Â*I will even go so far as to say that it is the first functional user interface to ever grace a UNIX OS. Â*I believe it is the single most functional UI to grace a computer, beating out Windows for its easy of use and power combined.

Also, with the 867MHz and 1GHz G4 and the Geforce4 Go and Mobility Radeon 9000 chipsets behind the wheel, the Powerbook is more than powerful enough than any task that I ever do. Â*The towers, with dual 867MHz-1.25GHz G4s and similarly great video cards are overkill. Â*Much like any modern PC. Â*2+ GHz? Â*Who uses that on a day-by-day basis?

I want my computer to run an email client, a web browser, an IM client, a word processor, and an ssh client to connect to other (UNIX) machines. Â*I have a 900MHz P3 Dell laptop that more than covers it. Â*I could do this on Linux or FreeBSD, and in fact I have in the past, but I use Windows XP because I want simplicity and ease of use.

I'd rather be using a 12" or 15" Powerbook G4 right now.

I don't know about the 17", the thing has the form factor of a cafeteria tray, I have a feeling it would be a tad unruly.

The only bad thing I can say about the Powerbooks is that they have the one button mouse. Â*I despise this. Â*OS X is designed for a two-button mouse, although it can function very well with one, and the same as with two if you don't mind hitting the command key while you click. Â*If I were to get a Mac desktop, the only thing I would replace would be the mouse. Â*A nice Logitech optical mouse with scroll wheel really helps. Â*Too bad they didn't put the second button on the Powerbook though, if you ask me.

If I had the money, I'd have a Mac. Â*Whether a Powerbook, a G4 tower, or even a G4 flat-screen iMac, they are all incredibly funtional computers that do 99% of what I need to do. Â*And that's more than Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, or Solaris does. Â*My (rather large) $0.02

*EDIT*: Yes, I do own a single Apple product. Â*I have a 10GB Windows iPod. Â*However, I do not own a Mac, nor do I consider myself an Apple zealot. Â*I just like using the right tool for the job, and for a laptop or main PC, I believe a Mac fits the bill.

[-D12-_LMN8R]

But the thing is, while MacOS X is a solid operating system (I've used it, it not only looks beautiful, but runs fast and well too), if you have the money, why not get a kickass PC for less? Anything you can do on a mac you can do on a PC - video capture/editing, gaming (even if you say you don't, the opportunity is easily there), word processing, programming, web dev, networking - whatever you want, it's there. Heck, you can easily *get* any program you want without much trouble...

As I was talking to Stan yesterday, he brought to my attention that more UofM staff are running macs, and more important people in programming are also running Macs, but the truth is - if you're already comfortable with Windows/Linux/etc., and you can benefit with the experience and money-savings of building your own computer, why not go with a PC?

But it comes down to personal opinion once again - if you've firmly decided on a laptop, ABSOLUTELY go with a Mac. They're powerful, and just plain look damn cool. However, if you want a desktop, think about it for a long time and make sure you won't regret the limitations of going with a Mac. Blizzard makes great games, but they come once every 2-3 years...and that's about all you get on a Mac http://campcaen.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Good luck with whatever you get!

[Stanley]

First, I don't know if U of M guys are using Macs. Those of us going to school here in New Jersey are watching some of the key minds in computer science using macs.

As for why not get a kick ass pc, well, I already own 3 PC's, and I am fully aware of their capabilities. I also am fully aware of how easy it is to get software on the PC. But then again, when you're me, it's not too hard to get Mac Software. I've also decided that I don't need a 4th desktop. Especially one i can get a powerbook and have crazy like power on my lap. But even I was getting a desktop, I've decided i'm tired of simply dealing with windows. It makes no sense for me to deal with the #)$(* that windows has put me through over the past week (whole bunch of projects due today) if I don't have time to play games.

I will also talk about the "limitations" of a mac. In all honesty, unless you are a gamer, a mac has none. This is the honest truth. A few points to think about. What good are thousands of programs to someone who uses maybe 15 total (all of which i can either find on the mac, or find equivelents that are just as good). As for the speed, if you've ever used a Mac, they are actually pretty quick. It helps that the OS is optimized as highly as Jaguar is. Plus, I like doing art and such, and there is no comparison. On a Mac, it is just sweeter. Anyway. I must go.

[GPeszek]

Limitations? *cough* money *cough*

A new Mac offers you very little besides the cheap thrills of having a different operating system.

As for your problems with Winblows, I still have no clue what you do to your machines that make them run so poorly. I've been an avid loather of Windows since 9x (and still am of that paticular line), but Win2k (and XP for that matter) really changed my perspective. I have yet to have any major issues with Windows 2000 and XP seems to be getting better, which is why I have no idea what you could possibly be doing to your machines. Certainly not to say that OS X (or Jag) doesn't have advantages over Windows. I just wouldn't be surprised that if you do whatever you do to your current Windows box to your new Mac that it'll bomb just as much.

[-D12-_LMN8R]

Well I didn't realize you already had three desktop PCs

Mac laptop it is!

But yea, ever since I got Windows 2000, and now Windows XP Pro, I've had absolutely no stability problems (except for with my #### Soyo mobo......got Epox now)

[Ops]

I use all types of operating systems and have been familiar with comps for a very long time. I currently use a windows 98 laptop, a windows XP laptop, a mac OS 9 iBook (laptop) and an iMac (desktop) running Mac OS X. I also still own a Zenith A/T clone, Mac Performa 646 and a mac powerbook 165c. Mac users are hardly shut out of the gaming community. The top 10 best -selling- games of 2002 were all availible for mac. EVERY ONE. hmm. some limitation. http://campcaen.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[-D12-_LMN8R]

Well, after talking with my brother a lot today, I realized that the price limitation is a whole lot bigger than I'd originally thought......

Check this out... (http://campcaen.engin.umich.edu/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=17;t=237)

[Stanley]

To be honest, I have no idea why Windows XP has been so messed up on my equipment. Part of it could be that the multi-processor build is rather poor. I've also been having issues with dialog boxes killing applications left and right. Who knows, although I will say that my parents machine (700 mhz dell, 256 megs of ram, 40 g drive) is begining to show the same symptoms mine has.

On an interesting note, I only started having all kinds of issues after a certain Uncle who will remain nameless kicked my machine a few months ago. Even more interesting is that i think my problems have been hard drive related, and if i remember correctly, after said uncle kicked my my machine, it took about 5 retries before my hard drive started acknoledging it's boot sector. Very interesting....

[Stanley]

So here is an interesting article. I'm not sure how useful this is. Pretty much, PC's are faster. *Shrugs* Not much new but an interesting look. Not sure how good the tests are, the fact that they use an alienware laptop is kind of sketchy (it doesn't really show pc laptop power because from what i understand, Alienware just stuck a full pentium 4 in a laptop assmebly) but anywhere, here it is:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/diginews/2003-01/2003_01_07_macpc.html

just thought i'd show that.

hey stan,
im a friend of ops, thinking about going to the camp this summer...

anyways, i would DEFINETLY go for a mac, and get a laptop at that. i just got a Powerbook Ti at xmas time (and got screwed that the new ones came out just 3 weeks later lol) anyways, it's amazing. my dad has a P3 laptop, that supposedly 1.5ghz, while this powerbook is @ 867mhz and does everything faster than the dell...

as for OSX, you prolly know enough that it's the best for personal computing out there: it has power for those who need it, and ease for those who need that

stablility on Jaguar is that it never locks up/freezes. stability on windows is that it doesn't freeze before running 3 apps at the same time...u know what i mean =)

also, windows has a 24-stage pipeline, and a 8-bit OS
macs have a 7 stage pipeline, and a 64-bit OS



i could go on, but i need ti go play basketball...good luck with ur choice (get a mac) http://campcaen.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[GPeszek]

1 - Operating system's don't have "pipelines"
2 - Windows NT (NT 4, NT 5 [2000] and NT 5.1 [XP]) all have 32-bit kernels
3- The Intel Pentium 4's has a 20 stage pipeline (http://www.intel.com/home/desktop/pentium4/faq.htm)
4- The AMD XP chip has a 10 stage pipeline (http://www.vanshardware.com/reviews/2002/01/020107_AthlonXP2000/020107_AthlonXP2000.htm)
5- The more or fewer stages is not an indicator of power or speed: both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Read http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content....2 (http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/popular_articles/article/1465.2/) for more information about why the pipleine argument, especially when argued with the correct information, is flawed.

[Ops]

You know what would be fuk1ng perfect... Is if a small group of ver knowledgeable people presented an article that did not show one side of the picture, or even both sides of the picture, but simly provided an unbiased completly objectional presentation of mac-vs-pc that did not take any side wwhatsoever. Wow I think I would die of happiness. Not that anyone would listen to the analysis of course haha.

[GPeszek]

Interestingly enough, if you watch Apple's video and say "hey! a shorter pipeline is much faster!", time it. Longer pipelines mean you can run the processor faster (which is why the G4 runs at a slower speed, each pipeline cycle needs more time to do more work). In Apple's demo, they run them at the *same* speed. The demo's longer pipeline only takes about 50% more time to finish, but yet in reality the pipeline would be moving instructions along at more than twice the speed of the shorter pipeline. The result would be the longer pipeline finishing about 10 seconds (20%) faster than the shorter one.

In Apple's *own* demo, the P4 would win.

[Ops]

Okay simple fact: <span style='color:red'>processors that have completly different architectures cannot be compared in any circumstances.</span> They just can't. Too many factors would need to be taken into account including bad/good programming on the apps that are running.

[GPeszek]

I'm merely trying to show that fighting the Apple &quot;More GHz bad&quot; marketing scam fire is no better than Intel's &quot;More GHz GOOD&quot; marketing scam. http://campcaen.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Stanley]

Um, might I add. There is more to speed than just the processor. I know G knows that. But just to bring that to light. And a lot of Apple's speed comes from the fact that they send all window drawing processes to the graphics card directly (windows does not do this except in programs that make use of Direct X). This frees up processor time for other things.

[descapa]

for each job there is a tool

sometimes it is better to use a Mac and sometimes it is better to us an Intel based box. Â*sometimes it is better to use Linux other times OS X. Â*sometimes it is better no be mobile and othertimes not. Â*sometimes it is great to be connected wirelessly on my couch, othertimes you need to be off the network/grid/hook.

apple makes some great stuff and they are leading the industry in inovation. Â*their laptops are to die for and other people are competing to catch up, but PC laptops are great too (cost, options, etc).

Stan for you since I know you, I would recommend keeping your Intel/Windows/Linux desktop just the way it is. Â*now buy an apple laptop and have it for while you are on the road. (I did this except I could not afford an apple so I got a dell) Â*it is great to have desktop and laptop.

a lot of people are interested in OS X because it looks pretty. Â*it is much like a pretty girl except that this girl is really smart, so once you start using OS X you come to like a lot of things about it. Â*the problem is stan, I think you might have problems getting used to OS X unless you commit to it. Â*that is the problem I have...I want my WindowsButton-R, I want my alt-tab, I want dos and windows, I want my right click. Â*I know all of the shortcuts and speed...that is why I couldn't use OS X. Â*but make me use it for 3 months and I would change. Â*the problem is what are you willing to do? Â*I wanted a laptop that did email, http, wireless, ssh, winamp (plus some other stuff)....so I don't need a 2ghz machine, nor do I need all of these other features. Â*I was looking @ cost. Â*face it you love graphics but how much do you _really_ do? Â*and how much better would you do it on a laptop?? Â*would you really do it beter without a mouse?

I guess I feel like Justin here...why have it unless you need it? Â*go to dell and get a cheap machine, otherwise by the newer stuff.

RE: Â*people in education/CS who are using macs. I have noticed this too, and I think it is for a couple reasons:
1) Â*because they want to be differnet and use the bledding edge...once mac came out with something worthwhile (OS X and nice laptops) then people started using them
2) Â*because macs and edu are hand in hand, plus they give discounts to edu places

RE: Â*&quot;unlce kicking your computer&quot;
I wonder how many bumps there are driving from Cincinnati to Ann Arbor (2+ times) or from Cincinnati to Princeton (atleast 2+ times). Â*compared to a kick the back of a computer, and mind not like a socer ball kick more like a kick your friend in the leg like a joke kick (what the heck is that??!!)....total rubbish


I guess I am tempted to close this thread...I think Stan has a better idea what to buy now (like he would listen to use from the beginning?) Â* http://campcaen.engin.umich.edu/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif